In the modern world of business, data has become the new oil to fuel growth and it’s no different with ecommerce. In fact, it is incredibly important as brands try to scale and make data-determined decisions.
Littledata’s founder and CEO, Edward Upton recently caught up with Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket is Empty podcast to chat on this very topic and how to future-proof your business via data on Shopify and BigCommerce.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Hey gang, welcome to the Your Basket is Empty Pod. A space where I sit down with agencies, brands, and original e-comm thinkers to discuss their journey, practical advice, and how they’re navigating the current digital landscape. Your Basket is Empty, is also a bimonthly industry newsletter that covers the most interesting ecom and direct consumer news interviews with original ecom thinkers, a jobs board, an event listing section, and a playlist. Go check that out at yourbasketisempty.com.
On this episode, we’re chatting with Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata and we are discussing building a future-proof data platform. We touch on the fallacy of big data, the importance of harvesting the right data, GA4, TLDR, navigating data regulation, the power of Shopify’s product velocity, and the pros and cons of being platform partner agnostic. Before we get into it, this episode is brought to you by our good friends at Omnisend. You might’ve heard things like email marketing is expensive, has low ROI or it’s too complicated. Now, what if I told you these are all myths. In reality, email marketing can be affordable, bringing in a great return on investment, and is incredibly straightforward, or at least that’s all true. If you used Omnisend the email marketing and SMS platform used by more than a hundred thousand e-commerce brands to attract, convert, and keep new customers.
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Ed, welcome to the pod. How are you? And where are you?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Very good. Thanks for having me, Tim. Well, I’m doing well and I’m currently in Newbury, sunny Newbury in the south of England.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Nice. You’re going to have to explain where Newbury is to me. My geography is not that good.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, it’s just kind of like taking Oxford in the middle of the country. Due south from there, West from London. It’s a sort of convenient place to be based used to in the days before people actually stopped driving everywhere. It used to be kind of a classic hub for companies to have their headquarters, but obviously now we just have remote working, as we do at Littledata.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Is it officially in Somerset?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
We are in West Berkshire. We’re not that far west. Known for the headquarters of Vodafone until obviously, they decided to like everyone else move to London.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, there you go. All right. Well, this is both interesting from a geography perspective and then a corporate perspective as well in terms of where head offices are… However, today is not about that. We’re going to be talking about how to build a future-proof data platform. The uninitiated. I’d like to do a little bit of a rewind or set the scene. What is Littledata and how do you help brands?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Great. So Littledata helps brands get super accurate data about their customer journey. So, by customer journey we mean all the touchpoints that happen on their ecommerce store from typically starting with the marketing channel that acquires the customer through browsing, adding to cart checkout, and also post-purchase behavior refunds, upsells, fulfillments, etc. And we do that with a proprietary technology that integrates deeply into the ecommerce platform itself. So, into the backend of Shopify and really out of the box. So, we’re not an agency, we don’t help do lots of custom-built brands out of the box. We can just make sure that all of the data is captured and then we can feed it into the data destinations, the brand needs. And the start was Google Analytics and the Google marketing platform, obviously number one for a lot of brand tracking. We launched on Meta for Facebook and Instagram last year and we just launched TikTok and Pinterest this year and Klaviyo will be coming soon.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Interesting. And does that plumbing go into things like BI and data warehouses and all that sort of stuff? Like the endpoints don’t really really matter from your perspective?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
It does for some brands. I guess it really depends on the size of the brand, and what’s appropriate. So, I guess you might start with just having Google as a sort of one-stop platform to go into. The next step up from there might be using Looker Studio as a sample. To build reports on top of that. The next step beyond that might be streaming all those data points into BigQuery, a data warehouse, and then using a BI tool, maybe a Tableau or a Power BI on top of that. And then the higher standard, the biggest brands you work with might have their own data warehouse on something like a Snowflake. And we stream into there via another data platform called Segment.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Interesting. So you set the scene very well and my observation, I’m happy to be challenged on this, is that data is great, but what’s probably more important and useful is the interpretation of that data. So, how do you guys help on that front or is it your job simply to provide the data? And then like you talked about there, there’s other tools that help them interpret it.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
To an extent that, but I mean let’s talk about why the name Littledata. So, I guess when I started the business, what I got fed up on is lots of people banging on about big data and this whole sort of just, we’ll hoover it up, and then at a later stage we’ll figure out how to connect all together and there’ll be huge value as long as we’re just harvesting.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Stuff. The new oil, the new oil.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Oil, yeah, exactly. Just drill a hole anywhere and gush out the ground. And one of the big fallacies of that is that in this sort of data lake as you created it is completely impossible to, there’s no structure, there’s no way of actually linking together all of these customer touchpoints into a journey. And without understanding the journey, obviously, you can’t understand anyway that you can actually improve the customer experience or your marketing campaigns. And so the point about Littledata is that there are just a few things that you need to get really right, and one of those is the ability to link the purchases, which obviously like an ecommerce brand, your critical data points back to the marketing campaigns that bought them. And so I think that you’re right to some level it’s not just about harvesting the data, it’s about getting it in the right place. As I said, we don’t provide reporting tools, we’re not a dashboard. So, to some extent, we are agnostic about what the brand does with it down the line, but we do make sure that the key data points, particularly the accuracy of the purchase orders are tracked correctly.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
It’s a slight deviation from where we are right now. But I know you’ve been talking a lot about GA4. What have you learned and maybe what’s your TLDR on that whole thing? I’m going to admit I know fu*k all about it. I’ve been sitting on the sidelines thinking I should learn more about this, but it’s not really my space. It doesn’t really impact my business, but obviously being in the space, you can consider me an official Luddite.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, well no, I mean you’re not alone in that, right? It’s one of those topics that people read about and they’re like, they immediately go to sleep. So most people would just hope that it goes away and sorts itself out. And I guess one of our jobs for business is to actually care about it and sort out the details underneath. I think TLDR is, there was a lot of noise about this transition. A lot of brands found it painful because not only is it a completely different sort of collection infrastructure, so they actually have to redo the tagging of their site, but it’s also a completely different reporting interface. So, they have to actually redo how they think about their marketing analytics. Honestly, I think it’s a great new product, it’s just very different to the old product. So, I think that a lot of the whohob will die down over the next couple of months.
I think the brands we’re talking to, although as I said it was a difficult challenging transition, I think we’re seeing that they are getting familiar with the new tool. There are a few configuration options that once they get set up seem to make reporting work a lot better. What we promised as a business is to help brands get as much as possible with what they’re tracking before and then to add to the confusion as if Google’s own product marketing messages weren’t confusing enough and they were very confusing. Everything from it’s completely new, you’re going to have to see its new thing to don’t worry, we’ll just transition it automatically to, oh, that transition doesn’t work. But what was confusing is then Shopify launched back in March its own what they call Google Sales Channel or Google and YouTube sales channel to be specific. And again, they promised to just fix this problem, Hey, just add this sales channel, and it’ll go away. And what we’re seeing there is that it doesn’t work particularly well. It does track some of the basics, but going back to the stuff you really care about, you’re not going to see a hundred percent accuracy, the actual purchase tracking, and the real problem is not that it doesn’t work, there’s a big confusion between who owns it. So, Shopify, if you go and ask them says, oh no, Google’s maintaining that and Google if you can actually get hold of them, which almost no one can will say, we’ve never heard of this thing.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Interesting. That’s fascinating. I was unaware that the product marketing or messaging and communications were a big part of the confusion. One would’ve assumed that they would’ve had that under control the size of the company that they are and the coffers that they have.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
You think so, wouldn’t you? But I think that stuff all gets harder the scale you at. And the weird thing about Google Analytics although it’s one of Google’s top three products in terms of users, top five products in terms of users, obviously in terms of revenue, it’s nowhere. So, in some ways Google cares about in some ways it doesn’t. Yeah,
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
I suppose compared to search in the revenue and margin that they drive from that, it’s just a totally different
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Indirectly drives ad revenue, but it’s not like Google ads. It doesn’t get the same amount of internal attention.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. I mean I don’t know the history of it, but I suppose it’s an interesting kind of, ultimately it’s a bolt-on, right? It’s not really part of the core business.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, well Google, the history is Google acquired the single Urchin in 2007. They then rebuilt it, but they rebuilt it, think back to what the internet was 15 years ago. It had to work at different scales. So, one of the reasons why they had to launch GA4 was the old version, I wasn’t fit for purpose anymore. I mean it was consuming vast amounts of their cloud computing because it was operating on a scale that wasn’t built for. And again, in terms of the whole data model was let’s say too restrictive and out of date. So yeah, the reason why they need to leap to the new product, but it has caused pain and I think what we’ve seen in the market is a lot of, although Google was trying to push people onto it a couple of months ago, I think a lot of brands haven’t got that yet.
They’re just getting their heads around this month of right, we’re back from the summer holidays, so let’s now look at how do we make this work for us. But I think we have to make it work for them part mainly exactly, it is the main gateway into the Google marketing platform. And so what I can tell you for sure is that I don’t think I’ve met any brand that says we don’t spend any dollars on Google and Google’s very clear that all of the product development they’re putting into ad personalization, audience, etc, is effectively rooted through Google Analytics. They don’t want you to send data directly to Google ads. It’s much more powerful if you can use GA to be the conduit of that.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
It strikes me that there are echoes between that kind of transition from their old platform into GA4 and the GDPR compliance sort of work and introductions of the last while. Which leads me to an incredibly fascinating topic and that is regulatory data protection. So you guys must be at the forefront, the coalface of this. How do you find that balance between regulatory data protection and ensuring the brands get the best quality data? Where do you sit there? Do you have a team that does that? How does that work?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, I guess part of our expertise, as I said is how to do the tracking in conjunction with complying with these regulations, I guess ultimately we’re on the side of the brand. We’re trying to help the brand get a maximal data capture as we can within the regulations. And obviously, but we’re not trying to, there is a line, I mean I wrote about this on our blog last month because I think there are certain technologies out there, fingerprinting being a good example, which I think go over that line. They’re basically trying to bypass the user’s wish to not be tracked. And I believe that is actually what we need to do, and I think as Google’s approach to this generally, goes on, there may be again a little bit different between the arms of the business. I think we live in a privacy-first world and we have to respect that not always users want to be tracked.
And so if we take GDPR as an example, if they land on the website and they have that cookie banner and they can perfectly accept or not, what we just have to ensure is that when they click accept or at any point, they click to accept that we track as much as we can at that point. And if we don’t we wait until they do because yeah, there are many challenges there, but one of the very simple ones is that, so imagine your campaign takes the landing page. The landing page has those UTM parameters in the link, which tell you where the campaign is, but if you don’t track the user to the subsequent page because they haven’t clicked that banner on the first page, then you lose all that marketing at which you use all that knowledge about what the user is there. So, what you have to do is make sure that you are tracking them after the page loads, but before they go to the next page.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
It’s a fascinating area, isn’t it? I feel like from a consumer experience perspective, my observation is that GDPR hasn’t changed anything. In fact, it’s made my experience more annoying. I just want to get the thing out the way right there is now this very annoying pop-up across every single site and the reality is that the intent of, and it’s not just a brand of the person that’s surfacing this pop-up, is to get you to sign up to whatever the thing it is that they want. So, then to opt-out or to change my data capture, it becomes a pain in the a**. So everyone just accepts it, right? It’s like yeah, yeah, get it out of the way. I just want to get in there. And then I think from an ecom perspective, my observation is take my data, you’re going to serve me good stuff, you’re going to serve me relevant content, relevant deals. I think the whole Cambridge Analytica and Facebook have really f*cked it because that’s quite nefarious. I do feel that that kind of attitude to data is a spectrum and that has really played into a lot of what we’re talking about, but maybe unfairly.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, I think it absolutely has. And so it is created these default preference regulators that consumers need to be protected, whereas you say in a lot of cases there’s an implicit bargain makes people quite happy with that you track me in and then I get personalization. I think the other thing is, I dunno, we’ve seen Google, so a new privacy center, so when you go on Google search, it’s on a new browser, it says you’ve got to opt into this. And again, it’s nice design this, but again, there’s way too much choice there. It assumes users have hours to consider their marketing choices. So you’re right, I actually prefer the way they do it in the US now. So, it’s California consumer protection and is now being copied in a few other states, it gives you the right to opt out, but it doesn’t require you to have that annoying cookie banner when you land on the site.
So I think that’s a better balance, to be honest. Now, let’s be honest, the other point here is that a lot of consumers regulation or not a lot of consumers are opting out by just having an ad blocker. So that’s fine. I mean that’s again the modern world depending on which geography you’re in and what kind of devices people are and there’s a large number of people who just use ad blockers by default and block the tracking. So that happens as a tracking business, and we have to work around that, but I don’t think regulation is needed to protect, the consumers don’t want to be tracked. There are already ways they can do that.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. I suppose, yeah, maybe the changes in regulation have forced consumers just to be more aware of what’s going on. That’s been a big part of it and then they’re making their own decisions based on that. A slight change of gears, I know you are kind of platform agnostic to some degree and we can agree that all partners are equal to some degree, but I’m curious, what’s your general take on the ecom platform market? I think it’s a very interesting space race that’s going on at the moment. Who do you think is winning? Who has worked to do? What’s your take?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
I mean history of our company is that we took the decision to sort of focus a hundred percent on Shopify in 2019 and that was a pretty good decision. I think they’ve been over the last four or five years very much net beneficiaries and particularly we’re obviously typically selling to the larger end of Shopify. So, brands we have smaller customers are typically brands doing more than 2 million a year online. And why Shopify won out there, I mean I think they just have quite a commanding lead now in just product velocity. A lot of B2B SaaS you say, it is an arms race, in any given sector, you’ve just got to actually keep ahead of the competition. It’s all moving fast. And I think what was really interesting Gartner report about this, I was reading last month and it pointed out just how much more money Shopify invests in R&D now compared to all the other platforms in the race. I think Shopify is still winning in most of those categories, but it’s most dominant in that lower mid-market.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, I tend to agree. I think it strikes me as like bonkers at anyone within that kind of, well slight sidestep I think, and I did some work, I’ve been doing work on and off trying to actually analyze the market and I think what’s interesting is the way in which everyone describes it, it’s different. So the way that you describe the mid-market to me is kind of like we’re pretty aligned. I’ll go and talk to somebody else and it’s totally out. So for them, enterprise starts at 1 billion and if you’re talking to a Salesforce commerce cloud, now you talk to Shopify, that’s not enterprise, their enterprise starts at like 500 million, then it gets deeper and it’s like, okay, well is it a billion revenue across their entire business? How much of that is online retail? It might be a tiny percentage, but the business itself is an enterprise, so therefore they sit into the enterprise bucket.
So I think the categorization is an interesting concept and I think the GMV is a good indicator, but then it’s ultimately the business complexity and I think that’s where most of the, that’s Shopify potentially has chinks in its armor, rightly so because they’re a mass market product. It’s B2B, internationalization, all the classic stuff, content, and commerce, and hence I think some of the headless platforms can make some moves. But yeah, I find it fascinating. Ultimately Shopify is going upstream and a lot of those other players are coming downstream and then you’ve got this weird world in the middle where I do find some of the brands will be casualties both going for them, it’s a bit of a land grab and I’m not convinced that I’m not sure if their needs are really being met. A platform grab.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Candidly, we launched BigCommerce last year. Partly we felt like we should have another horse in the race other than Shopify, but also because we saw BigCommerce’s strategy was exactly to attack that upper mid-market sector, again, what they call enterprise, but BigCommerce’s definition of enterprises laughably anything more than a couple of million a year. The strategy was right, but unfortunately, I think the execution has not been right. So I think they absolutely aim to pick off the lack of B2B in lack of multi-store, all of these classic pain points. The problem is Shopify got there first, so in the meantime, Shopify launched Shopify Markets and that’s not there yet, but Markets V2 is looking better, they’ve launched some more B2B, and they talked about a lot of this summer’s releases. That’s what I mean about product velocity. I think although they might not be there yet, I think that they know the gaps and they don’t want to give up that upper Shopify strategy is not to just be great for the million-dollar stores. They want to be great for the billion-dollar stores too.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, totally. And I think their product velocity coupled with their product marketing is a f*cking killer combination. I think the two of them combined, I don’t see any other platforms competing with them on that now. I think once you dig into requirements and you dig into the actual product, Shopify may not actually be as good as say BigCommerce, but I think they tell the story a lot better, and ultimately it all boils down to the portfolio. A brand will look at another brand and go, oh, okay, you’ve made that decision, great, my board will be happy with that. And then of course I’ll go to the Gartner Magic Quadrant and now Shopify’s in the top right, another big tick. So, I want to talk or stay on the kind of partner ecosystem. What are your general thoughts on it? Because my thoughts are it kind of changes over time, maybe, I don’t know, six to ten-year cycles. There’ll be leading partners in the ecosystem and then they might get bought, they might be about to IPO like at Klaviyo and then we kind of go through these cycles. What do you think about it? What do you think about the ecosystem at the moment and how do you guys fit into it working with tech partners and all that sort of stuff?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, well first of all, yeah, again, going back to one of the competitive advantages for Shopify is that they have, they’ve built through their design with the app store and so on a very vibrant ecosystem so that there are lots of, I dunno how many apps are on the app store now, but there are hundreds of thousands and even amongst the bigger partners, there are dozens and dozens who we can work with who have lots of global customers. I think in terms of our partnerships within our other tech partnerships within the space, we’ve obviously focused on apps that are both relevant to those larger brands, but also there is a stake in the data accuracy. So a big category for example is subscription apps. And then I think the other obvious category is other stuff that’s around the orders and upgrades. So upsell apps, again, one of the classic problems has been that you can’t track upsells easily post-purchase upsells and chocolate carts.
Again, we integrate with a lot of those. And then the other category is marketing apps generally not. Yes, what I would call offsite marketing apps like the likes of Klaviyo, but also onsite marketing apps that are doing promotions, pre-purchase upsells, pre-checkout upsells, et cetera. Because again, all of those have a vested interest in the brand, being able to track the impact of their thing and most of them do have some internal analytics. You can go into their tools and you can see obviously, but every brand knows that they’re somewhat vanity metrics. For example, if your app does popup banners to promote a sale, obviously you want people to see to attribute that to orders. So everyone who sees that you’re going to claim has been influenced by it. Whereas if they push all that data to Google Analytics, the brand becomes a bit more like for and also understands the interactions. Is it important when people come from Facebook that they see that banner, etc..
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
That’s a really interesting point and it was something I wanted to ask you about In terms of your product roadmap. How does your product roadmap work? I mean I’m assuming a lot of it comes from brands your customers, but how much does the partner ecosystem, based on what you’ve just said there, do you look for gaps in partners and where their stack isn’t just quite allowing the brand to have that richer data experience?
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
To some extent, I think we look for what we call partner categories, areas where theres an obvious areas for enrichment because we’re all about having better quality data and if we feel like from that kind of app there’s a gap in visibility or tracking for the brand that we can fill. That’s interesting. As you say, the nice thing about the scale that we’re operating at now with over a thousand customers is that we have pretty consistent requests and I think every product-led company, you don’t do it when the first person answers it. It’s when you had the tenth or twentieth request that this is something that’s a real need for a lot of brands. So perhaps to answer your question more directly about the roadmap, I mean I think that, yeah, it’s a few different things. It is building out, I mean it’s obviously as we talked about, launching new data destinations that the brands care about.
So again, our product strategy there is really just to support the major marketing channels the brands care about. And as I said, that’s definitely Google and Meta and that’s why we supported them first. But it is also, I think email marketing is a big part of that and I think there were some up-and-coming ad platforms like TikTok and Pinterest that are part of that. And then obviously within just our current support for Google, Google Analytics, we just want to basically broaden and enrich what we can do there. So, as I said, where there are opportunities to integrate, for example, with a subscription app to enrich the data we can get from there, then we’ll do that.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
So I want to end on a slightly more philosophical note, something I’m introducing to the podcasts going forward. I’d love to know what’s going on in the future, but I’m curious about what you have changed your mind about in the last 12 months.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I think one of them actually does come back to this where I see the ecommerce wars going. I think twelve months ago I was a lot more bullish or less, I thought it was important for us to be a multi-platform app. I actually think based on different moves in the last few years and just Shopify’s growth, I think I feel less, we didn’t get to talk about Klavyios IPO, but if you look at that, they’ve built a half a billion business, which is nearly 80% reliant on Shopify now they have a platform risk problem at my scale.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
Yeah, I would say so. ha-ha.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
I’m not so worried about it. I think we can build a very successful business and probably meet all of our dreams by just being on Shopify. So I think that one of the things I’ve changed my mind about is the need to be a multi-platform app. Now I’d love to serve, we have brands coming to us who are on WooCommerce or Magento or whatever. I’d love to be able to serve them better, but the reality is that you have to absolutely focus or die in the world of software. And I’m not sure that, I think we’re probably better served now being super focused on just keeping up with all the stuff that’s happening on Shopify and the Shopify partner system than having to also worry about BigCommerce and Salesforce and so on.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
That leads me to my final question, where is Littledata in two years’ time?
Edward Upton, Founder & CEO of Littledata:
Well, I hope we’re relevant to even more brands. Most of the brands we work with are already using Google Analytics and similar data destinations we feed. The message we have to get to them is that they can get a much higher return investment from their ad spend if they can actually get better metrics and better audiences and those tools. And I think, I hope we can carry on expanding the team. We have a great team now of 35 people globally who support Littledata. As you say, I think we’ve become experts on niche and I think it’s really important that actually we can nurture that sort of expertise and be able to support it because the world is changing rapidly. And so I wouldn’t, in two years’ time, I don’t have picks views on where the product’s going to be, but I do have a product vision that says we are going to be sticking close to what those brands need. So if there’s a new social channel that opens up tomorrow and starts scaling and getting attention in a year will be there. I think that’s an important thing as any product-led business that we don’t have fixed views on where we should be. We just want to actually follow what the customer base needs.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
I think that’s very sage advice and I think that’s a good way to end the pod Ed, thanks for joining me.
Edward Upton, Founder and CEO of Littledata:
Thanks, Tim.
Tim Richardson, Host of Your Basket Is Empty:
There you go, folks. Thanks for joining us. If you like what you’ve heard, please like, download, subscribe, and tell all your mates to do the same. Before we go, a quick word from our friends at Omnisend the ROI-focused email and SMS marketing platform for online merchants. Go check them out at getomnisend.com/yourbasketisempty. We’ll see you next time.
